Monday, April 13, 2009

Open Thread

I am leaving India tonight for a foreign trip that will last about five weeks. I hope to be back in Tiruvannamalai on May 22nd.

I apologise again for not contributing material in the last few months. Life led me in other directions. I do, though, have many unfinished posts that I hope to complete when I return to India.

I will not be taking a computer with me since I don't own a laptop. I will therefore only have access to the blog when I find myself with friends who will let me use their computers. Under such circumstances it is likely that I won't be able to moderate comments as often as I do when I am at home.

Please feel free to continue to post your comments here, and to continue with your discussions.

120 comments:

sada said...

David,
It's time you become more tech savvy and get a nettop :) so that we aren't starved of your posts!
Sada

Anonymous said...

I guess this is a good time to take a break because tiruvannamalai should be searing hot. Enjoy your trip.

baskar said...

Wish you well.

Regards,

Sankar said...

I came across an account of a Norwegian devotee whom i suspect to be swami ramana giri.The following content was found by me in a blog named ramana smriti.

" The NorwegianA friend from Bombay came to have a look at the Ashram and to find out what it was all about. He had little faith himself, but wanted to know what exactly drew people to Bhagavan.

He would get hold of this man and that and keep on asking all sorts of questions. A Norwegian sadhu [?] lived at that time near the Ashram and we went one evening in search of him. He lived in a small cubby hole, meant for a bathroom. He slept and cooked his food there. It was wonderful to think that an educated European had accepted this kind of life just to be near Bhagavan. With his beard, long hair and weather-beaten face he looked old, but in reality he was quite young. During his university years he had studied comparative religion and thus was attracted to India and to Indian philosophy. Even in Norway, whenever he would meet an Indian he would question him eagerly, only to discover that Indians on the whole knew very little of their glorious heritage. This had only strengthened his desire to go to India, meet the people who knew, and learn from them. He tried hard and got a job as a lecturer in religion in one of the North Indian colleges. He joined and in his spare time was searching for a Guru. He was told that he could find one only in the Himalayas. He roamed the mountains and at last he found somebody who agreed to guide and instruct him. The Norwegian was very reticent about his Guru and would tell neither name nor place. But he gave up his job, joined his Guru in the mountains, learnt sankhya yoga under him and was told to do sadhana [?] for four years and then come back. How was he to live for these four years? Again he got a job, this time in Bangalore. A fellow traveller in the train advised him strongly to go and meet Bhagavan before he took up his duties. He broke his journey, saw Bhagavan and could not leave. In Bhagavan's presence his sankhya sadhana became very vigorous and speedy. He had no money and just stretched every copper. He did not feel the need to return to the Himalayas. He said he would go on till the goal was reached. We returned wondering at Bhagavan's mighty power which attracted all, however small or great. Our Bombay friend felt that there might be something in the Ashram beyond his ken and grew very humble. "

Anonymous said...

Dear David,
Did you ever interview Ram Surat Kumar or have a lengthy talk to him?
And if so what are some of your
impressions?

krishna said...

Have a nice trip.

Clemens Vargas Ramos said...

.

To all german readers: The translation of Vasisthas' Yoga by Swami Venkatesananda is finished (although proofreading is still needed). This translation has 790 pages (4.65 MB).

The permission to publish is pending.

This is a protected link at SCRIBD to have a look on this work (for private use only):

Yoga Vasistha at SRIBD.com.

Shan said...

David,

Do take a break and looking forward to your post when you are back...meanwhile, am sure you will get a laptop soon...

Regards
Murugavel

Anonymous said...

Question on "Ellam Ondre". Trying to find a good english translation of this. Can anyone recommend one

Thanks,
Jay

Losing M. Mind said...

Artist formerly known as Scott Fraundorf;

I was watching on Youtube, dialogues between U.G. Krishnamurti, and Byron Katie, essentially both Self-Realized, I accept non-skeptically. Krishnamurti, while in use of language, says something different from Ramana, I don't think in meaning, he differs at all, coming from experience. For instance, he seems to be questioning, deconstructing, tearing apart, what is lower case knowledge, lower case truth, things that are thought, respect for gurus, because they claim to be "enlightened". But at the same time, clearly the state he points to, is the same Truth, Knowledge. He just doesn't like to use those words, because of their normal association with something verbal, something thought. But to Ramana, the kind of Knowledge he experienced, Self-Knowledge, is absolute egoic silence, without a trace of thought, sithout a trace of differentiation. When U.G. says, there is no difference between me and that sewer rat, or that tree, he is saying something timeless, reiterated time and time again, which was also said by Ramana. Also even though he tears down, so to speak, the guru-devotee relationship, that Realization can be something given from a guru. His disagreement seems to be with egoic-based thinking, which accepts some lower case doctrinal truth. My understanding of a sadguru, is not referring to formalities, whether it takes on those forms or not, but association with someone who is non-differentiated egoless, not to have it transferred, but because then our identity, individual, differentiated ego-fulness is cut down by the discrimination. I saw that same process around U.G. Krishnamurti, around Byron Katie with her four questions. When Byron Katie talked, in some of the Youtube videos, it sounded remarkably like Talks wtih Ramana Maharshi. No admittance of problems, because they are seen to be utterly unreal, even talking to war victims, and perpetrators, she doesn't accept, or admit of that the problems, traumas or anything other then mental, a rejection of the grace. Preferring some Vasana to grace.

Clemens Vargas Ramos said...

.

...he seems to be questioning, deconstructing, tearing apart, what is lower case knowledge.... But at the same time, clearly the state he points to, is the same Truth, Knowledge. He just doesn't like to use those words...Yes, this is also my impression and totally true. U.G. was a true sage with a big heart. He had a unique way to express the things out of his own experience and this way was not what we call a traditional one.

.

Losing M. Mind said...

"The simple answer is that no one who is not a jnani can really tell who is in that state, and I would not claim to be in that state myself. Ramana told people that the peace one feels in the presence of such beings is a good indication that one is in the presence of an enlightened being, but this is a sign not a proof.

When I first went to see Lakshmana Swamy in the late 1970s, I did not go there with any intention of evaluating him. But as soon as I looked into his eyes, something inside me said, "This man is a jnani." Nothing has ever caused me to doubt that first impression. I don't know how I came to that conclusion because I had never had that kind of thought before with anybody else. Something inside me just knew."

what it seems to me, though i could be wrong, that from the ajnani's standpoint, the glasses are foggy with which to judge who is a jnani. as an ajnani, that is how I'd sum up, wrongly or rightly my own ability. but even with foggy glasses, I have a very firm certitude that the teacher I correspond with is a jnani, in the same manner that David Godman describes with Lakshmana swami. this is the thing that gives me this certitude. that his answers are soooo spot on, that there is not a trace of personal, like the sense of being an individual never really arises. That his answers shock me into shame for my own egoity, and open me up to a samadhi-ish bliss, and he redirects my practice in a way, that I can become very quiescent, and much closer to a egoically silent experience. Even though maybe an ajnani can't tell a jnani, in some intellectual way. The thing is the intense, intense grace, that the differentiation between me and them merges in their presence, because for them their is no "me", and "them", their eyes are like a clear tractor beam. It seems people around Ramana could "tell" that Ramana was a Jnani, but ironically, maybe, it's because the intellect can't grasp this person, whatsoever. Although their grace, seems to give people that vision, because it puts people in the samadhi-space, as was mentioned by David godman, people's "I"'s do commonly temporarily subside in the presence of the Jnani, and then it is clear that this is a Jnani. even the way they move, it's always completely unexpected, because the mind anticipates. and the Jnani will completely floor any anticipation. teachers that have that Presence, and even as an Ajnani, it's palpable. Let's put it this way, if they say that they Realized the Self, if they say their "I" has died. My tendency is to believe them. But when I try to go, is this person a jnani, or are they an ajnani? And there are several for instance neo-advaitins, that I so badly want to judge, and go, their personal "I" hasn't died, because they may say something I intellectually disagree with. and I'm not so sure. And then my intellect tries to judge, partly because i'm intellectually fascinated with the subject. There were a few other teachers, I tried corresponding with, but the power of the one I Correspond with, their grace pulls me back into their orbit. "Dear Kassy, Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramanaya, every yours in truth" I'm posting this, because for me, this is a fascinating topic, whether it is egoic, or the WRONG direction. their is this awe, the Power of the Gnani. One of the things that maybe caused this, is because of my no mind experience in my early twenties, that I couldn't find anyone to relate with this, and then here are these people that are permenantly established without a mind, is mind blowing. i'm under their spell, with fascination.

Ravi said...

Friends,
I wish to share this excerpt from 'Letters from Ramanasramam':
"16th August, 1946
(61) AN UNKNOWN DEVOTEE
Amongst the letters received by the Ashram today, there
was one in English from an unknown devotee from
Czechoslovakia. Seeing it Bhagavan affectionately told us all
about it and had it read out in the hall. The gist of it is: “Though my body is actually at a great distance from Arunachala, it is at the feet of Bhagavan from a spiritual viewpoint. I believe that fifty years will be completed by this 1st of September from the
time when young Ramana reached Tiruvannamalai. I seek your
permission to celebrate the occasion in the belief that it is the real birthday of Bhagavan. I shall celebrate the festival with an endeavour to submerge my mind in the dust of the feet of
Bhagavan with limitless devotion, faith and regard, and with
my heart dwelling on Bhagavan’s voice.”
While all of us were expressing our delight on hearing
the contents of that letter, Bhagavan said with a face radiant
with benevolence, “We do not know who he is, and what his
name and his native place are. He never came here. How
has he managed to know that it is full fifty years since I came
here? He has written a letter full of devotion. From what he
has written, it looks as if he has read about my life and
understood it. Devotees have been looking forward to an
article from Dr. S. Radhakrishnan, but it has not been
received so far. If received, it is the intention of these people
to print it as the very first article. When S. Doraiswamy was
asked, he said, ‘Oh no. I cannot do it. I prefer to be silent.’
D.S. Sastri also said the same thing. This letter has come
unexpectedly. That is how things happen. These people are
awaiting articles from others, especially from Dr. S.
Radhakrishnan. See the peculiarity! Where is Czechoslovakia
and where is Tiruvannamalai? What are we to say when a
person who has never seen me has written thus?”
-----------------------------------
salutations.

Ravi said...

Friends,
Sri Sankara in stanza 3 of his Atma Bodha says that “Action
cannot destroy ignorance, for it is not hostile to it.
Knowledge alone can destroy it, as light destroys darkness.”
1.What is action?
2.What is Ignorance?
3.What is Knowledge?

Interesting to reflect on the above after contemplating the Story of Nanda,The Pariah Saint.

Namaskar.

Ravi said...

Friends,
In this excerpt from 'Letters from Ramanasramam',Sri Bhagavan throws interesting light on the Nature of the Prarabda of the Gnani:
"3rd June, 1946
(48) JAPA, TAPA AND THE LIKE
Yesterday a gentleman came here — a devout brahmin.
From his words and from the rosary of rudrakshas around
his neck, it was clear that he was practising mantra japam. He
said that he had darshan of Bhagavan once before in
Virupaksha Cave. Today, going up to Bhagavan, he asked,
“Swami, can a continuous japa of Panchakshari or Tarakam
absolve one from sin such as drinking alcoholic liquor and
the like?” “What exactly is your idea?” asked Bhagavan. The
brahmin again asked pointedly, “Even though people commit
adultery and theft and take alcoholic drinks and so on, can
their sins be wiped out by doing japam with the mantras
mentioned above. Or will the sins stick to them?”
“If the feeling ‘I am doing japa’ is not there, the sins
committed by a man will not stick to him. If the feeling ‘I am
doing the japa’ is there, why should not the sin arising from
bad habits stick on?” said Bhagavan. “Will not this punya
(result of virtuous acts) extinguish that papam (result of those
sinful acts)?” asked the brahmin. “So long as the feeling,
‘I am doing’ is there, one must experience the result of one’s
acts, whether they are good or bad. How is it possible to
wipe out one act with another? When the feeling that ‘I am
doing’ is lost, nothing affects a man. Unless one realises the
Self, the feeling ‘I am doing’ will never vanish. For one who
realises the Self where is the need for japam? Where is the
need for tapas? Owing to the force of prarabdha life goes on,
but he does not wish for anything. Prarabdha is of three
categories, ichha, anichha, and parechha (personally desired,
without desire and due to others’ desire). For him who has
realised his Self, there is no ichha-prarabdha. The two others,
anichha and parechha remain. Whatever he does is for others
only. If there are things to be done by him for others, he
does them but the results do not affect him. Whatever be
the actions that such people do, there is no punya and no
papa attached to them. But they do only what is proper
according to the accepted standard of the world — nothing
else,”
said Bhagavan.

Sri Krishna says exactly the same in Bhagavad Gita (Chapter 3):
"Whatever a great man does, ordinary people will imitate; they follow his example. Consider me: I am not bound by any sort of duty. There is nothing, in all the three worlds, which I do not already possess; nothing I have yet to acquire. But I go on working, nevertheless. If I did not continue to work untiringly as I do, mankind would still follow me, no matter where I led them. Suppose I were to stop? They would all be lost. The result would be caste-mixture and universal destruction.”18 (“Caste-mixture” is an interpretive translation. Literally, the word samskarasya means only “confusion.”) “The ignorant work for the fruit of their action: the wise must work also without desire pointing man’s feet to the path of his duty.”3-19

“Let the wise beware lest they bewilder the minds of the ignorant hungry for action: let them show by example how work is holy when the heart of the worker is fixed on the Highest.”3-20
-----------------------------------
This needs to be considered-whether the 'Ignorant Prarabda' survives a 'supposed enlightenement'.If a person was abusive before 'enlightenment' and continues to be abusive after 'Enlightenment',the 'person' is very much alive and there is no Gnana.
-----------------------------------
Salutations.

Clemens Vargas Ramos said...

.

Friends, once we talked here about "spiritual lullabies" or "thumb-suckers". Today I found the article "Gita Saara Taalaattu (The Lullaby of Gita Essence) by Namaraya in "The Mountain Path", issue October 1986:

"[...] The Lullaby of Gita Essence, composed in Tamil by the Saintly Tiruvengadanathar for the delight of his daughter, contains the very essence of this Jnana Yoga". [...]

The Mountain PathSalutations!

.

Subramanian. R said...

Dear anon,

Ellam Ondre, Tamil has been rendered in English by Asramam itself and is titled ALL IS ONE.
It is available in bookdepot.

There are about 24 books in Tamil on Advaita and of these 12 have been published by Kovilur Math.
Like Gitasara Thalattu, select verses of Ozhivil Odukkam, Staying in the Remain, has been done by J.Jayaraman and has been published by MP during the last 2 years.

Anonymous said...

Dear David,

(and anyone else who may know),

Did Ramana ever discuss his position on the subject of the divinity of Jesus Christ? If so, what was it?

Thank You,
Regards,
Mar.
maruta_ananda@yahoo.com

Anonymous said...

Do Christians ask about Sri Ramana
Maharshi's divinity or greatness?

Bookworm said...

Anonymous Wrote:Do Christians ask about Sri Ramana
Maharshi's divinity or greatness?

.........

Ask some Christians...........


who have heard of Ramana ...for your truest answer.

Losing M. Mind said...

In talks with Ramana Maharshi there were several times where he referenced that both Jesus, and St. Paul had Realized the Self, and were Jnanis, and equated Self-Realization with Christ Consciousness.

Losing M. Mind said...

When I was 22, I was thinking about what maybe Jnana could be described as in a more secular set of language, and it occured to me that it is when the insecure, fearful mind snaps, never to return again, and only transcendent bliss, joy remains. And since the insecure mind is what objectifies, and gives the "world" it's stamp of solidity, there is only formlessness. Because when I freaked out when I was 22, what freaked me out, was that I had almost utterly destroyed the insecure mind, out of necessity, because I wanted to be free, and then I started having really intense "hallucenations" with other people, because there was no more the stamp of reality to the "world". It probably was the mind sinking into the heart, and suddenly, it's like "what is going on here?" I wanted my cake and to eat it too. I wanted to be fearless, and joyous, and connected without any barrier, so only love existed, but I also wanted there to be a world, and individuals that I was existing in, in this state. I couldn't have both, so I freaked out, trying to in a panicked state make the world real again, and for about 3 years, I really couldn't. So there was this state of terror. (choosing a real world was forsaking Bliss, and love) There was a band that I loved around that time, and I was watching them on Youtube (Citizen Fish), and I think the lead singer is a Jnani (personal opinion). He's running on full steam 24 hours inspiration, utopia on stage. I wanted to be as joyous, and free, and full of wisdom as he was.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZWhKq4q9bo&feature=related
lyrics to song in video:
Flinch
It's a fine line with drops on either side. Instant reactions: being undecided would lose a balance unrecognized. Don't leave me alone! Don't touch me! Could just as love those he despised, or vice versa - a social supply of any extreme you could need to arrive at points unchartered part through fear, (don't touch me) part through reliance on getting this near (don't leave me alone.) Having regular good times usually late. Passing through the uncertain state - through the Flinch Reactive Zone, where no one stands completely alone. When togetherness tenses, just like talking over fences. Ignoring the barrier by keeping it there incase the candle starts to flare too brightly for the eye to see so much at once. Ok, hold it there. Don't leave me alone! Don't touch me!

Nandu Narasimhan said...

Just thought I would share this.This is from Balaram Reddiar's accounts. Please go through the last paragraph in particular. Just imagining the thought of GOD sitting next to you and you feeling His power is itself unbelievable.

"In the first year of my settling in Tiruvannamalai, I remember one afternoon when I was sitting in the
hall and Bhagavan was explaining a particular spiritual point to me. During the discussion he asked
me to go to one of the two almirahs that were up against the west wall and bring him a certain book.
I searched for the book but was unable to find it. I returned to Bhagavan, informed him of my failure
to locate the book, and again sat down against the south wall facing him.
Presently, I saw Bhagavan slowly and majestically walk over to the almirah, open it, and immediately
pull out the book he had asked me to find. He closed the almirah and, to my surprise, instead of
walking back to the couch, he came and sat on the floor right next to me, on my left. He opened the
book to the page he wanted me to read and, holding it in his right hand, held the book before my face
and asked me to read the particular passage.
Bhagavan’s attendants had told me that his body was like a furnace. Only then, when he sat so close
to me, did I understand what they meant. I felt spiritual power emanating from his body like an
electric dynamo. I was thrilled to the core of my being."

Bookworm said...

Losing M. Mi.d

Why M.?

Losing M. Mind said...

Losing My Mind (lol)

I was thinking about how Broken Yogi was it seems correct (in my exeriences as of late) about desire for the Self. The obstacle to Self-Realization appears to be as David Godman said "pending desires". When desire for Self-Realization is stronger than other desires, it automatically happens. Initially I was really taken intellectually with Who am I? which also has other levels, but lately Marital Garland of Letters, and the writings about Arunachala have become more exciting to me. I'm noticing that Self-Inquiry starts out intellectually, and then Grace, Bhakti, Bliss kind of overtake the intellectual excitement. And the other desires recede, because the desire to be in pure Being, the restful, blissful state becomes more of a pull than worldly "experiences". It seems this happens by keeping attention focused on Inquiry, questioning the identity, and being in Grace, experiences happen, some hopeful, some fearful, and each time this happens, the desires for experiences, objects falls off, and there gets to be more and more a blissful indifference to anything good or bad in the "world". I was just thinking about how in my opinion it seems the reason Self-Realization is rare, is because so few truly want it, and of those who earnestly want it, maybe few want it bad enough. But it's less a question of difficulty in the standard sense, and more a question of how bad Self-Realization is desired, and if that desire surpasses all other desires. And through the attempt at Inquiry, the desire for Self-Realization starts to catch up with the other desires, because the conviction starts to become apparent that the Supreme Bliss of Being-Consciousness-Bliss, is as is said by Maharshi, and the Upanishads, Joy of which all other joys are but a mere reflection. When little bits of the ego fall off, the experience of Bliss intensifies, because it was all that was preventing an awareness of Bliss. I noticed a similar trend with Don Miguel Ruiz, at first I was interested more intellectually with the brilliance of the Four Agreements, which for me, was as much an intuitive breakthrough in outlook as Who am I?. But recently I was reading Prayers. The only difference I see between Don MIguel Ruiz and Advaita, is word substitution, sort of the same with the Tao, Tao being the Self, Ruiz calls it Divine Spirit and life, but also says that it is all that exists, and talks about being that as opposed to an individual with problems. Prayers is much more beautiful and lyrical, and less intellectual, as is Marital Garland of Letters, and at first my interest was more intellectual, which Who am I? and Four Agreements deal with extraordinarily. In a way, it seemed to me, that first the intellectual conviction is necessary to supply motivation for effort, Who am I? and Four Agreements being in a sense being taken in to the Tiger's Jaws, appealing to my cold logic. Both of those writings seemed to find me, than vice versa. So, it has an element of seeming to me, that as maturity increases, which is the awareness of grace, there becomes more interest in the Grace-filled lyrical, poetic writings, that are more sentimental, such as Marital Garland of letters, and Prayers. As far as an "external" guru. It seems, Grace is what allows an awareness of who to associate with, pulls someone into association with Jnanis or the more mature, and that too is a manifestation of Grace. all ideologies (anarchism, communism, democracy), all religions (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism), at heart is an awareness of Grace. In my experiences, and opinions, God, is the awareness of Grace. And really I find that thread in all religions, in counter-cultures, when in the punk counter-culture they talk of "Mutual Aid", In Christianity "acceptance of Christ into the Heart", all the aspirations for good, globally or individually are an awareness of Grace.

Nandu Narasimhan said...

Dear All,

Here I am, sitting in office, watching Papaji's 'Call Off The Search' film on google video.

As I am watching Him play cricket and trying unsuccessfully to connect with the balls that David is bowling at Him, this thought comes up - He is just proving to us that neither the bat nor the ball are Real and therefore the entire processing of connecting with the ball is in itself an illusion.

And I am a hard-core cricket follower!

Papaji ki jai ho!

Bookworm said...

Nandu Narasimhan wrote:
'As I am watching Him play cricket and trying unsuccessfully to connect with the balls that David is bowling at Him, this thought comes up- He is just proving to us that neither the bat nor the ball are Real and therefore the entire processing of connecting with the ball is in itself an illusion'
.....

You Know what Ramana said about thought, don't you?
Besides couldn't it just be that Papaji was rubbish at cricket?

Murali said...

Bhagavan and The Power of Now:

I have been wondering for sometime as to what Bhagavan said about the the practice of focusing on the NOW, in the lines of what Echart Tolle has recommended. I have come across the following account yesterday. I thought of sharing it.

------------------------

While walking on the hill, TPR asked Bhagavan whether it was ever possible to totally eradicate one's karma or fate, summarily, in this birth itself. "Oh Yes... It can be done, one hundred percent, if you do as I tell you" replied Bhagavan.

"The totality of one's karma" said Bhagavan, "is divided into two. (I) the past I.e., memories of incidents, success, failure, change, pain, pleasure, growth and decay (II) the future., I.e., desires, impending ambitions, achievements, plans and their executions, etc., If one is prepared to completely erase the past, that is, all that has happened to one till this present moment, then fifty percent of one's karma will be warded off" TPR interrupted and asked "what about the other fifty percent?"

Bhagavan smiled graciously and said, "if you have succeeded in giving up the past, that is fifty percent of your karma, you will yourself realize that the remaining fifty percent is also destroyed. Simultaneously with past and future erased, there will be only the NOW"

"How does one achieve this almost impossible act of completely eradicating the past?" pleaded TPR. Bhagavan replied. "Accept and see without any trace of doubt or reaction, that whatever has happened up to the present moment is only through God's injunction. One will then get tremendous energy to totally erase one's past, on the valid ground and inner understanding that no one through one's effort can ever change or alter one's past"

Anonymous said...

Loved the story of Bhagavan and TPR
and being in the now. Alas Eckhart Tolle with his inflated satsang prices is no Bhagavan. Eckhart is
truely in the spirituality business, big time.

Clemens Vargas Ramos said...

.
MURALI - ...accept and see without any trace of doubt or reaction, that whatever has happened up to the present moment is only through God's injunction...Yes, that corresponds to the "second way":

GEMS FROM BHAGAVAN:

"There are only two ways to conquer destiny or be independent of it. One is to enquire for whom is this destiny,and discover that only the ego is bound by destiny and not the Self, and that the ego is non-existent.

The other way is to kill the ego by completely surrendering to the Lord, by realizing one’s helplessness and saying all the time, ‘Not I, but Thou Oh Lord’ and giving up all sense of ‘I’ and ‘mine’, and leaving it to the Lord to do what he likes with you. Complete effacement of the ego is necessary to conquer destiny, whether you achieve this effacement through Self enquiry or bhakti marga (path of devotion)."
.

Srikantha said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Srikantha said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Dear Murali,
Can you please let us know the source of discussion b/w Bhagavan and TPR? Its a real Gem! Thanks.

Murali said...

It is from a book called "Drops from the Ocean" by Sri V. Ganesan. pp 14-15.

TPR is short form for one Sri T.P. Ramachandra Iyer.

Regards Murali

Clemens Vargas Ramos said...

.
To Ravi and Nandu (and to whom it may concern): The move to Bremen is finished now. Phew! What a lot of garbage we store in our houses (and minds) years over years!

Salutations!
.

Nandu Narasimhan said...

Dear Clemens,

Prayers to Bhagavan so that you may have a full life and an empty mind in your hew home in Bremen.

All is Him.

Bookworm said...

On Open Thread , Nandu Narasimhan said: 'All is Him'

Nandu, Are you saying that God wears trousers?..that formless conciousness is male? That Ramana is a bloke?

Nandu Narasimhan said...

@ Bookworm,

Does it matter?

Nandu Narasimhan said...

This prayer to Bhagavan came to me when I was walking early in the morning a few days ago.

It is bad verse, and when I finally put it down in writing, I borrowed Swami Ramanagiri's method of referring to Himself as 'this idiot' or was it 'this fool'?

Please try not to laugh.


"You, who thinks of me, every minute of the day,
Let this idiot’s prayer massage your forehead.

You, who bears all my burdens,
Let this idiot’s prayer massage your shoulders.

You, who unhesitatingly run to me when I call you,
Let this idiot’s prayer massage your legs and feet.

You, other than whom I know none,
Let this idiot drift off into wakeful sleep on your lap."

Clemens Vargas Ramos said...

.

... Nandu; This prayer to Bhagavan came to me when I was walking early in the morning a few days ago...

Unfortunateley I'm not qualified to judge poems or other kind of texts in english language, but I'm convinced, Nandu, that your inspired thoughts - let them be poems or something else - are far away from any foolishness. There is no "bad" or "foolishness" where the spirit speaks.

.

Bookworm said...

Nandu Narasimhan you ask: Does it matter?

....

Yes, very much so.

Anonymous said...

Dear Narasimhan,
Loved your poem and found it very
moving.

Losing M. Mind said...

Bookworm, agreed.
The Self cares about our individualized opinions on gender. So i guess it does matter. (lol)

Nandu Narasimhan said...

@ Bookworm,

Having read your post on Papaji playing cricket and about Bhagavan incorrectly referred to by me as a man, one must agree that you are right.

Totally agree with you, and with what I posted too.

Pranams to you.

Losing M. Mind said...

Papaji may or may not have been an excellent Cricket Player, yes, there was the overt appearance of lacking skill in Call off the search. However, in Nothing ever Happened, Papaji showed that he was an excellent shot, and that being Enlightened from age 6 onwards after refusing a mango drink, helped him to never miss.(see Blissful army photos)

Bookworm said...

Losing M. Mind says:
'he was an excellent shot, and that being Enlightened from age 6 onwards after'
...

M... How do yo kmow that Papaji was 'enlightened' from the age of 6?

Clemens Vargas Ramos said...

.

Contemplation creates

(Online Readings by Raphael)

«If someone asked her why she [nature] produces, and if she wanted to listen to the question and then answer, she would speak in this fashion: “Better would be not to interrogate but rather to comprehend and keep silent as I do, since I am of the habit of not speaking.”

“What to comprehend?”

“That the generated Being is an object by me contemplated and a natural object of my contemplation; and I myself who was born of a similar contemplation have a natural tendency to contemplation; that which contemplates in me produces an object of contemplation like geometers trace out figures: instead I do not trace any figures, I just contemplate and the lines of the bodies come true, as if they were coming out [of me]. I have the disposition of my mother [the universal Soul] and of my parents [the other hypostases]: they themselves derive from a contemplation and I was born without them acting, but I have been generated because they are superior reasons [pure intellects] and they contemplate themselves»

(Plotin, Enneades, III 8, 4.).

.

Losing M. Mind said...

"M... How do yo kmow that Papaji was 'enlightened' from the age of 6?"

Bookworm Maharshi III, because I'm taking his word for it, and in Nothing Ever Happened Part I, he talks about how he Realized the Self after his mother offered him a mango drink which he refused. His family convinced him it was because of Krishna and that he should take up being a Krishna bhakta. Maharshi, told him to look for the seer instead of an external god. You know the story. I take him at his word. Do I know that Papaji was Enlightened from age 6? no, I'm not him, but that is what he said.

Bookworm said...

Just my opinion Clemens but I
feel it is safer, more to the point
and wiser to just stick to Ramana and the Teaching of.

Anonymous said...

After many years of Zen practice, my interest in the teachings of Ramana M. have reasserted themself.

The simplicity and ordinariness of Zen has been an enduring love-affair,
but Ramana’s teachings . . . . what can I say without spoiling them?,

. . . . again and again attend to both the feeling of ‘I’ and the ‘I’ thought,
all the while investigating from whence they come

. . . . to say more would be over-doing it

how wonderful

Bookworm said...

Anonymous says:


The simplicity and ordinariness of Zen has been an enduring love-affair,
but Ramana’s teachings . . . . what can I say without spoiling them?

....

'I am going back to Zen'

ANON said...

how do others understand the practice of "investigating"?

often it is said, do not in a mantra like fashion repeat over and over "who am I"? or "where does this 'I' come from"?

rather, “investigate” the 'I', the 'where'.

but what does that mean in practical terms, . . . . . to investigate?

is to investigate synonymous with:
choiceless awareness?
or to "look" with interest?
or to tune in to the ‘feeling’ of ‘I’?

if investigation does include these things and so with inward ‘attention’ and ‘interest’ one repeatedly asked
“who am I”?, wouldn’t that be synonymous with investigation?


personally, I don’t think it matters so much whether you come to a complete understanding of what it is to investigate. Even if you did inadvertently use “who am I?” as a mantra, numerous teachers of high quality propose earnestness to be more important than method.


** Anyway, I’d be interested to read how you “investigate”, in practical terms.

Clemens Vargas Ramos said...

.

Seeds to meditate

ASPARSAYOGA

A. Is yoga, then, not used for Advaita Vedanta?

R. The yoga that rests upon psycho-physical aspects, Advaita goes beyond it; there is no yoga higher than comprehension.

He whose mind and heart are fused and pointed at comprehending goes directly to thecenter of Being. Yet Advaita does have, if I may use the expression, its own yoga which is called Asparsayoga. Asparsa means without contact, without relations, without support. It is a yoga which is experienced by means of that threefold knowledge we have been talking about. Thus, it is a very specific yoga.Brahman or the Absolute has no supports, because the Absolute rests upon itself alone; being One-without-a-second it cannot have any relation with anything. Therefore, Asparsayoga is the appropriate yoga for Brahman nirguna; it is the yoga of Non-duality; it is the yoga of the true sannyasin.

A. Who invented this yoga?

R. It was not invented, it is described in the Upanisads but the person who made it known was Gaudapada.

Gaudapada, under the influence of the Narayana Principle itself, revealed this yoga to men eagerly looking for Knowledge-realization. He immortalized it inthe karika-verses which he added to the Mandukya Upanisad and which, inturn, were commented by the great Teacher Sankara. Thus, this Upanisadis extremely important for the non-dualistic Vedanta, because the twogreatest exponents of Non-dualism converge here to codify and co-ordinate what we might call Advaita-asparsa, just as Patanjali co-ordinated the classical Rajayoga. Today this yoga is still taught by those disciples scattered around the world and who are linked to the chain or the asram of Gaudapada and Sankara, but they are just a few.

A. If I understand correctly, this kind of yoga is little known even in India. Why is that?

R. This yoga is of pure metaphysical order, and this implies that it is not for the many; due to its specific structure and to its operative dynamics it undoubtedly requires special qualifications. On the other hand, for any activity in life certain specific qualifications are required.

You, for example, are a painter, and we know that not everyone can paint; it is a question of aptitude.

A. What kind of obstacles prevent one from following this kind ofyoga?

R. The hardest obstacle the neophyte comes up against is that of becoming crystallized upon the plane of the empirical mind (the first level of cognitive perception).

Because the cognitive solution is not found by this type of yoga, through that particular sector of the mind, there is a danger that, by going around in circles within the sphere of the analytical and critical thinkingmind, one may even run the risk of insanity. This has happened to some philosophers who, seeking truth merely on the plane of the subject-object,found themselves closed in a horizontal vicious circle of ideas and concepts up to the point of becoming frustrated and bewildered by the impossibility of finding a solution to the problem. The selective empirical mind finds itsproper place and its raison d-etre on the plane of the horizontal line and of quantity, but if one wishes to proceed along the vertical line, sooner or later one must leave the former behind and abandon it altogether. It is the first prop which begins to give way and the individual learns to live withoutsupport, bereft of his objectifying mind. One must have the intelligence to comprehend and the courage to affirm the fact that relational thought, which one has used up to now, has completed its purpose and it is now timeto go beyond it as something that has had its day.

.

Clemens Vargas Ramos said...

.

Seeds to meditate

(continued)

A. Are there, If I may use the expression, asparsin Teachers?

R. Certainly, all those who, through consciential realization and not just by simple discourse, follow the pure Tradition of Sankara and Gaudapada.

A. How can we recognize these Teachers?

R. By the kind of life they unveil. A Tradition should be lived, rather than proclaimed in a sentimental and verbal manner. Only he who lives the Asparsa truth may be said to be a child of the Asparsa. But it is easier to find Sivaite and Visnuite Teachers. And indeed, the majority are Visnuites; classical yoga aims at achieving union with the Divinity (the saguna God person).

This means that the majority of yogins are monists and dualists.

But Asparsa, as we have seen, goes beyond Dualism and even Monism itself, therefore from this stand-point it is not a yoga; in fact in our context the word yoga simply means path, sadhana, method, while usually it is taken in its acceptation of union. The term union presupposes the idea of two entia which are to unite, while in Asparsa there is no idea of duality at all. If we wish to give the name yoga to Asparsa we must consider it as an entirely special kind of yoga.

A. So, what is the difference between an asparsin, a bhakta and a disciple of Raja yoga?

R. The bhakta moves upon the plane of sentiment, and through devotion, cult-rite and worship tries to reach a break-through of the egolevel and thus unite with the God-person, the giver of grace.

The Rajayoga disciple moves upon the plane of the will, and through concentration (dharana), meditation (dhyana) and samadhi penetrates into the highest spheres where he unites with Purusa. This is a method based on mental discipline and psychic command; it is a kind of yoga already requiring certain qualifications.

The asparsin moves upon the plane of the mind in its total range. He is a seeker of the ultimate Freedom, of the universal Constant, of the Pole without cause-effect, space and time. By discriminating between Real and non-real he reaches the overpowering knowledge by Identity, and the realization of «I am That».

As you can see the first is based upon sentiment, the second upon dynamic will, the last upon knowledge in its various degrees.

As far as the final result of the sadhana is concerned, we can say that the first two (together with all the other kinds of yoga that derive from them) attain the sphere of the saguna, while the third is directed towards Nirguna.

A. Should I therefore assume that Asparsayoga is superior?

R. It is not a question of superiority or inferiority; it is a question of knowing what one wants. Everything in the universe is in its proper place and everything has its own raison d-etre. One may, at most, speak of degrees of Realization.

The highest degree is, without doubt, that of nirguna, of the constant, of the absoluteness, of the a-causal, of the a-temporal; the exclusively metaphysical one which transcends nature.

.

Losing M. Mind said...

I'm finding "For whom is this?" working better for me for becoming non-objective, then just who am I?

For whom is this, seems to call attention to the non-objective, formless nature of consciousness. Because when people say abide as the Self, or hold onto the I. It doesn't seem to me that they mean something specific that is somewhere, but the I is formless consciousness. When I'm starting to get dull, searching out the question what is eternal in my experience seems to help. And then, when agitated, where is the source of happiness? within. These three lines of questioning seem to lead to existence-consciousness-bliss. Who am I? Consciousness that is formless. Where is bliss? within as my nature. what is eternal in my experience? Existence itself.

But alot of times I don't supply answers but call attention to the formless, blissful, uninterrupted existence. These have come from my attempts to understand my correspondence with this seemingly realized sage, and of course the quintessential writings in Collected Works.

Because many of these things don't at first seem obvious as to what they mean. And it seems good to admit ignorance of what they mean. Nome's responses do not hit on a level that my mind can comprehend or grasp what it wants to grasp.

Often it seems the opposite, his answers seem elusive and ungraspable, to hit from an angle I didn't expect, and not to give me the clear sense of direction I want. I want to go "now I understand", if I just do this from now on, I'll be alright. And that isn't really it seems how inquiry works. It's more contemplations, I don't even know what it is. I don't even know what the goal is.

Another pitfall that it seems maybe some have, those who believe they are realized but not, is intellectually thinking they grasp what Maharshi was pointing at. I did initially to a large extent. I get deeper the more ignorant I feel. And maybe in a sense that is when grace kicks in. When my ego is starting to realize it's powerlessness. I've talked to two people who have said things that don't ring true to me.

One person a zen master in the anarchist subculture said that there is no final state of Realization, everyone is an aspirant. There was a sort of neo-advaitin in America that said you practice inquiry but the realization is that the ego will never die and you can't get rid of it.

Not only are those contrary to Maharshi's teachings, they don not ring true to me experientially. On the first one, because suffering mentally, psychologically at the very least seems un-natural. And I've glimpsed a state beyond it. Also my psychological distress, existential loneliness, "poverty in the heart" to quote Papaji is evidentially not circumstance dependent.

Around people, or by myself I can feel existential despair. Praised or hated. And the same with happiness. I find myself happy, and I may have said I'm happy because of... But it's also not circumstance dependent. Even pain, it's severity is so effected by how much I notice it and think about it. For all these reasons it is not hard for me to imagine a final state where suffering has been transcended.

Clemens Vargas Ramos said...

.

... Losing M. Mind, For all these reasons it is not hard for me to imagine a final state where suffering has been transcended...

Although there are many people (and philosophical and religious systems) denying the possibility of a nondual state of being and living. One of the typical explanations for that - carrying enormous evidence - works this way: "Don't deny your ego - you need it to carry on your wordly affairs; it is you. Act yourself out! Denying your personal 'I' means an act of violence."

Many people don't realize that we are carrying two voices within us - totally opposed to each other.

.

Anonymous said...

David,
It's been a long time. How are you? How was your trip to England? Please post something, anything. Thank you.

Ravi said...

Ramos/Friends,
"Don't deny your ego - you need it to carry on your wordly affairs; it is you. Act yourself out! Denying your personal 'I' means an act of violence."

An Excerpt from Talks with Nisargadutta Maharaj from Page 83 of 'I am That':
"Q: The Yoga of living, of life itself, we may call the Natural Yoga (nisarga yoga). It reminds me of the Primal Yoga (adhi yoga), mentioned in the Rig-Veda which was described as the marrying of life with mind.
M: A life lived thoughtfully, in full awareness, is by itself Nisarga Yoga.
Q: What does the marriage of life and mind mean?
M: Living in spontaneous awareness, consciousness of effortless living, being fully interested in one's life -- all this is implied.
Q: Sharada Devi, wife of Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, used to scold his disciples for too much effort. She compared them to mangoes on the tree which are being plucked before they are ripe. 'Why hurry?' she used to say. 'Wait till you are fully ripe, mellow and sweet.'
M: How right she was! There are so many who take the dawn for the noon, a momentary experience for full realisation and destroy even the little they gain by excess of pride. Humility and silence are essential for a sadhaka, however advanced. Only a fully ripened jnani can allow himself complete spontaneity."
There is much more to Sri Sarada Devi's simple admonition than what Maharaj has expressed.It also implies a cheerful acceptance of the Role that one finds oneself in and to live it fully-Ramos has mentioned this.Spiritual Living is self abandonment and not self obsession.

Bookworm said...

Hello Clemens..you say:

'Although there are many people (and philosophical and religious systems) denying the possibility of a nondual state of being and living. One of the typical explanations for that - carrying enormous evidence - works this way: "Don't deny your ego - you need it to carry on your wordly affairs; it is you. Act yourself out! Denying your personal 'I' means an act of violence."

Many people don't realize that we are carrying two voices within us totally opposed to each other.

...

You are right.

It is the nature of the mind to mock that which it cannot comprehend or understand...much like leading minds and intellects used to mock the idea of flight in the 1850s.

Most in the world think that they are the spiritually ignorant mind, the thinking ego and intellect, or the false sense of 'me-ness' they feel in their heads.

The true sense of Self, 'me-ness', 'Am-ness' or Beingingness is the Spiritual Heart or core of oneself...which 'appears' to 'touch' the body on the righthand side of the chest.

Clemens Vargas Ramos said...

.

Q-1: Is there any such thing as your own experience?

UG: Whatever you experience has already been experienced by someone else. Your telling yourself, "Ah! I am in a blissful state," means that someone else before you has experienced that and has passed it on to you. Whatever may be the nature of the medium through which you experience, it is a second-hand, third-hand, and last-hand experience. It is not yours. There is no such thing as your own experience. Such experiences, however extraordinary, aren't worth a thing.

Q-1: But we get caught up with that idea.

UG: The experience is you.

Q-2: We want to know what truth is. We want to know what enlightenment is.

UG: You already know it. Don't tell me that you don't. There is no such thing as truth at all.

U. G. Krishnamurti

(Bookworm, I heard you, but I cannot continue with discussions in the moment)

.

Anonymous said...

I'm not sure that pointing to the right side of the chest is the way
to proceed.
The attention focused on the right
side is for the merest novice.
Would someone like to comment on this. As this is a very important point perhaps David would like to
comment on this.

Bookworm said...

Hello Clemens: When I need to know Truth I turn to Ramana.
The only thing of worth in the universe and of ourselves is Truth.

"Your quoteU" of UG
You already know it. Don't tell me that you don't. There is no such thing as truth at all.

One of us is wrong.

Bookworm said...

Anonymous:
If you do not feel Ramana is as true as it gets maybe you should look for ansers elsewhere.

ANON said...

when reading the wonderful material on David's blog, this tool is great,

http://www.wired-marker.org/en/help_getting_started.html#interface

it is a highlighter, you can highlight text you wish to note and save it for future reference. terrific!!

enjoy.

baskar said...

On the use of highligters (comment by Anon);

I find that wiredmarker.org is firefox friendly- but check this too:
Diigo; this is in case some of us are not aware of this pretty useful bookmarking site (you can highlight, bookmark and share).

Regards,

Baskar

Maneesha said...

@Anonymous,

David has dealt with the Heart centre being/not being on the right side of the chest in "Be As You Are" and also in one fo the intervies in the website in his name. Guess u can go thru them till David replies.

Clemens Vargas Ramos said...

.

"When all the ties of the heart are cut asunder here, then the mortal becomes immortal. Such is the teaching."

Katha Upanishad, II-3, 15

Bookworm said...

Hello Clemens..You say:

'"When all the ties of the heart are cut asunder here, then the 'mortal becomes' immortal. Such is the teaching."
Katha Upanishad, II-3, 15'

......
Surely what is 'immortal' is ..Always..'immortal?'
Surely it does it does not
..Become.. 'immortal?'

Bookworm said...

Hello Ravi, you say:

"Only a fully ripened jnani can allow himself complete spontaneity."
...

How do you know this Ravi?
How do you know what a
'fully ripened jnani' can do or not do?

Ramana said that there must be effort.
There must be effort made for one to live effortlessly.
It takes much effort to Be silent.
Or so it 'appears'

There is no 'self realisation'
There is' self death' ' the death of the false you..of who you think you are.
The death ..or non-attachment and entanglement ..of the false sense of self, of the thinking mind and intellect, of the ego and its false sense of 'me-ness' felt in ones head.

What is real is what remains...
The Self or Heart which is You ...so I read somewhere and I also read ' A wise person dies whilst alive'...
You, the true Being you now and are always, cannot die.

Losing M. Mind said...

Shakara's commentary on verse:

When all the knots-- all concepts arising from ignorance that bind one fast like knots, of the intellect; get shattered, are destroyed, here--- even while a man is living. The concepts arising from ignorance are, "I am this body", "This wealth is mine", "I am happy and unhappy', etc. When the bondages of ignorance are destroyed by the rise of the opposite knowledge of the identity of the Self and Brahman, in the form, "I am Brahman indeed, and am not a transmigrating soul', then the desires originiating from the knots become totally eradicated. Then a mortal becomes immortal, this much only is--there should not be any anticipation that there is more; the instruction; the expression, 'of all the Upanisads', should be supplied to complete the sentence.

By asserting 'He attains Brahman here' it has been declared that there is no going for an enlightened man of whom all the knots of ignorance become destroyed on the realization of the identity of the Self with the all-pervading and absolutely attributeless Brahman, and who becomes Brahman even while living, which fact is also supported by another Vedic text: "Of him the organs do not depart. Being but Brahman he is merged in Brahman.'

But for those who are not much advanced in the knowledge of Brahman, who are engaged in other kinds of knowledge (i.e. worship and meditation), and who are fit for the world of Brahma, as also for those who are the opposite of these and are fit for worldly existence, this particular kind of path is stated with a view to eulogizing the superior result of the knowledge of Brahman that is being treated here. (I think that maybe is the part that answers Bookworm's question)

Moreover, the knowledge of Fire had been questioned about and was imparted. The process of the attainment of the fruit of that knowledge has also to be described.

Losing M. Mind said...

Someone in whom delusion has not totally been eradicated speaking: It's interesting to me Bookworm, and I'm not criticizing that in the last two questionings of both Clemens and Ravi, you were asking them whether something was true that they quoted someone else as saying.

For instance Clemens was quoting the Katha Upanishad and Ravi was quoting Nisargadatta Maharaj. Too bad we can't ask Nisargadatta or the author of the Katha Upanishad those questions. Ravi did not make the comment about the fully ripened Jnani, it was part of a quote of Nisargadatta. However, that statement that only a fully ripened Jnani can allow himself full spontanaiety does make sense in light of my own experiences.

Because every direction "I" want to go in is rooted in delusion. I can only focus on inquiry and contemplation developing as you put it detachment and disentangling. In my seeking help from a fully ripened Jnani, the responses come from inside me and

I start to see and feel just how immersed in delusion I was. Even my attempts at inquiry, I sometimes find myself in tamas as opposed to unveiling the Bliss of the Self. So allowing myself spontanaiety, i.e. not channeling my efforts into Inquiry and more spiritual pursuits is just engaging in bad habits.

The other quote from the Katha Upanishad, like every quote in Katha Upanishad also really rings true for me. I don't really understand what the ego is or isn't. But I suppose being mortal is really just all the bad psychological habits, when I give up all those habits, attachments, identifications, Bliss and Grace become the prevailing tendency.

Maybe I should say the attachments are given up the more I realize Bliss and Grace and that I don't need the attachments. Or that the bad habits and attachments were really seeking Bliss and Grace but in the wrong place. That from Katha UPanishad Part II Canto III Verse 15 does not seem to be made in the spirit of becoming something else, or changing into an immortal.

The Katha Upanishad having read some of it is spoken in the spirit of (seemingly to me) ego-death. So becoming Immortal is realizing the Self. I see your point about self-death. However, and this is where my correspondence with Nome has been correcting me, is that for instance I was thinking from having read a bunch of Maharshi and others to fight off desire and fear.

So I created a tamasic stupor and then intense agitation when I couldn't fight it off. My heart was in the right place. But it's the Bliss, the Knowledge, the Grace that gives the needed strength to happily not desire, to happily forbear and not be anxious.

So Self Realization at this point seems more apropo. then self-death. Especially since in Maharshi's teachings the self was a mere misperception, trivial, and having never really existed, and clearly without substance. In Ribhu Gita merged like a solute such as cumin seed in water. That also seems more apropo. Of course, I'm not Realized and Maharshi's teachings were not verbal. They were the substance of Grace itself, the Self. I have no words about that and all my intellectual theories are probably wrong. I only say probably because I maybe haven't seen through all of them yet.

On the Katha Upanishad quote, I quoted Shankara's commentary on that verse. In several places, but it appears somewhere on this blog, I believe Ramana said that Shankara was himself. I take that to mean that Ramana considered Shankara's words to be the words of the Self and since Maharshi is the Self and still is the Self, it seems like it could be said that Shankara was and is infact Maharshi and contrariwise. Therefore couldn't it be said, maybe that the commentary on that verse was written by Maharshi (lol)

Clemens Vargas Ramos said...

.

... Losing M. Mind Wrote: Shankara's commentary on verse: ...

Where can I find Shankaras comments on Katha Upanishad, Losing M. Mind? I only have Swami Nikhilanandas summaries of them.

.

Sinhaka said...

I wonder if anyone could tell me the name of the man standing behind the child to left left in this picture. It would be interesting to read about his life with Bhagavan.

Thank you.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_CY3P9-yiKUk/ReKeUanu2vI/AAAAAAAAAYs/OG6gSO3jqFM/arch-34_13.jpg

Bookworm said...

Hello Losing M.Mind or M. for short. You say:
'couldn't it be said, maybe that the commentary on that verse was written by Maharshi (lol)

...
It is a bit of a stretch M. but in my opinion, for what it is worth...no.

There is no self realisation. To think that there is just egos illusion and fantasy,maya.
You are always and now the Self...Anything you notice in you... that is doubt or is the one who thinks and suffers and yearns and searches....... is not truly You or the Self and Heart

Bookworm said...

Hello again losing M. Mind.
You say:
'true for me. I don't really understand what the ego is or isn't'
...

Ego is who you think you are..which as with most, is probably your body and mind.

It is the thing or 'sense of me-ness' in your head... that is forever thinking, worrying or dreaming. It is unreal, yet you think it is you and is who you are.
It is that in you which becomes offended, insulted, angry or hurt.
It is the false one in you that suffers and searches.
It is not real. It is not you.

It is not who you truly are.

Bookworm said...

Hello Losing M. Mind. You say:
'Someone in whom delusion has not totally been eradicated speaking: It's interesting to me Bookworm, and I'm not criticizing that in the last two questionings of both Clemens and Ravi, you were asking them whether something was true that they quoted someone else as saying.

...

You have got me there..I should have been more careful reading Ravis comment. I am sorry Ravi.

As for Clemens comment from the Katha Upanishad..it just doesn't make sense to me..'becoming immortal' how can that be?

Losing M. Mind said...

The Shankara commentary versions are really famous, I think it was one of the famous things Shankara did was comment on the Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita. I think I got it at a nearby bookstore. I'm sure amazon.com and probably other websites.

Anonymous said...

Is staying with the "I" another
word for awareness, just being in the here and now?

sada said...

David,
New blogs pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Thanks,
Sada

Losing M. Mind said...

"As for Clemens comment from the Katha Upanishad..it just doesn't make sense to me..'becoming immortal' how can that be?"

My interpretation upon reading it was that it was a matter of perspective. Until I know who I am, then all th words I use are intellectual and not the Self.

I feel the same is true for other instructions such as the Katha Upanishad. A Jnani may say to me "You are already that, there is nothing to attain, the Self is always Realized". If someone who is not the Self tells me that, they might as well be telling me how to make pancakes.

It is just words an intellectual statement because it isn't coming from the Self and it's Realization. Since I have not Realized the Self, still have the delusion of being the body-mind some of the times, at others a glimpse, a premonition of the illuminated Consciousness that always is, and only is. The question is how to direct my efforts to become happier. Previously it was by seeking something externally.

Maharshi and others who are wise tell me that happiness is my nature and realizing that, not seeking it externally is the way to be happy. It makes sense to me in a sense that Realizing there is only the Self which is immortal and realizing I am immortal, that death and birth were imagined is in a sense becoming immortal.

I stick by the Shankara thing, but that's only because I believe the lore that Shankara is a Jnani, is Realized. It seems from what I've read Maharshi shared that assessment seeing as he translated many works of Shankara. If Maharshi was not an individual but only the Self, only Being-Consciousness-Bliss, the One without a Second, and Shankara was that too. Then Shankara and Maharshi are not different people. And their teachings, their essence is the same.

"Ego is who you think you are..which as with most, is probably your body and mind.

It is the thing or 'sense of me-ness' in your head... that is forever thinking, worrying or dreaming. It is unreal, yet you think it is you and is who you are.
It is that in you which becomes offended, insulted, angry or hurt.
It is the false one in you that suffers and searches.
It is not real. It is not you.

It is not who you truly are."

Strikes me as true.

"There is no self realisation. To think that there is just egos illusion and fantasy,maya.
You are always and now the Self...Anything you notice in you... that is doubt or is the one who thinks and suffers and yearns and searches....... is not truly You or the Self and Heart
"

If I still think a rope is a snake, and I don't have the knowledge that is a rope I am not free. I can talk about how snakes are really ropes eloquently but that's different from actually having the light shine on the "snake" and seeing that it is a rope.

That is the difference in my mind from being Realized and Unrealized. In Maharshi's translation of Shankara's Crest Jewel of Discrimination Maharshi says that (paraphrasing since my light burned out and I can't find Collected works) even if the required good deeds have not been performed through countless births, if one has a well-established spiritual teacher and a strong yearning for Liberation, something like that is enough.

This suggests to me that a strong desire for Liberation is essential. Nome has said that the desire and intensity of practice, that longing for Liberation is of hte nature of Knowledge and is what is left over when the Self is Realized (something like that, I can't remember). This suggests to me that a spiritual yearning for Realization, a recognition that Realization is infact what is desirable is very good.

Losing M. Mind said...

"Hello Losing M.Mind or M. for short. You say:
'couldn't it be said, maybe that the commentary on that verse was written by Maharshi (lol)"

That was good! Took me a second.

Bookworm said...

Hello Ravi,you say:

'expressed.It also implies a cheerful acceptance of the Role that one finds oneself in and to live it fully-Ramos has mentioned this.Spiritual Living is self abandonment and not self obsession.

.......
The thinking egomind is self obsession

Bookworm said...

Losing M. Mind
UG Khrishetc: You already know it. Don't tell me that you don't. There is no such thing as truth at all.


M. It is just a quote from some
desd guruish type of person.

We are truth, all of us, it is the self we truly are, it is the Heart and is Love

He was probably having a bad day.

Losing M. Mind said...

U.G. Krishnamurti's remark, there is no truth at all, I took that to be referring to relative truth. The Truth of the Self is not conceptual, right? So when they say Truth, they are not referring to having a correct opinion (lol).

If only I talk like Maharshi I'll be right all the time. I just need to take it on as an ideology. Kill the non-believers. Truth is most often used in terms of ideology and opinion. I think that is what U.G. was referring to. Knowledge also, that one got me at first. But Knowledge is the intuitive certitude that the snake is infact a rope based on knowing it for certain, based on having seen it. Not based on conjecture and opinion because then you may still harbor doubt. Knowing there is only the Self based on having given up the other awareness. (again I was straying into intellectual knowledge as opposed to experiential)

It isn't an accumulation of facts. So if U.G. says no one can know anything. I'd have to agree with him if he means it in the vernacular sense.

All my deeper experiences and what I understand of the Self it defies common sense, logic and cause and effect. Same with the 'becoming immortal' discussion. The contradictions are only not contradictions from the standpoint of Self-Knowledge.

The Katha Upanishad like Maharshi's teachings say things that are seemingly contradictory. But it's just approaching it from different angles. Ribhu Gita: There has never been a world, there has never been people or cats. (paraphrasing)

Then somewhere else it says, all the cats and people are only Brahman.
Then somewhere else it says Brahman too as well as cats and people are non-existent.

Somewhere it says in the Katha Upanishad probably, there is only the Self and it never changes and there is never any other thing, its subtler then the subtlest. Then Clemen's verse says (paraphrasing) sever the ties to the heart and become immortal.

To me, it's only an aid to shut the mind up and if it serves that purpose, it's doing it's job. But even better then that in my experience is actual connection with a Jnani, because since they are only the Self they eminate the Grace of the Self and being in contact with them is being in contact with the Self, then the verbal teachings take on a different meaning.

But logical arguments I feel kind of fall short on this subject. And for instance that teacher correspond with or Maharshi, or the author of the Katha Upanishad, there words have validity based on being the Self. Everyone else's words the validity is compromised by their own egoic delusions, and even if they make a sound logical argument it comes out of primary assumptions that are groundless.

Bookworm said...

Hello Losing M. you say:
'that a spiritual yearning for Realization, a recognition that Realization is infact what is desirable is very good.'

...

Yearning is a Heart thing..not of the head,
One yearns from and with ones Heart.
If nothing else it shows one where ones Heart is.

Bookworm said...

M. you say:
(something like that, I can't remember). This suggests to me that a spiritual yearning for Realization, a recognition that Realization is infact what is desirable is very good'
......

Even the One in you who yearns is not truly who you are ans must die or surrender its self into the Heart

Losing M. Mind said...

"Even the One in you who yearns is not truly who you are ans must die or surrender its self into the Heart"

I'm going to be direct and I could very well be wrong. But Bookworm, I don't believe you are speaking from experience, but opinion. Are you speaking from experience?

Have you realized what is to be Realized, is what you are saying the only thing true for you. Or do you still wonder toward various objects hoping to be fulfilled? Has the sense of individualized existence merged in the Blissful One, is duality banished, so that in responding to me you don't perceive me as a separate individual?

If not, then like me you are just another sufferer (and I'm speaking to an ego with pomp and not the Self), and because of this have no useful advise for me. Feel free to give it. But it would be be presumptuous of me to assume your maturity. The reason I don't think you are speaking from experience, is because it doesn't hit me from inside me.

It just seems like the words. I have enough of a glimpse to know that Who I am, what that refers to, what the Self refers to, the Heart refers to, is sooooo beyond anything I could reduce to pitiful concepts. I can parrot Maharshi too.

The yearning, I don't know whether it has to die, because it hasn't died yet, or surrender. I would assume not. The intensity of practice, the yearning for Liberation if they die, they die of their own accord when that yearning has surpassed my desire for sex, for romance, for love from others, for respect, for bodily survival. In Who am I? that is what it seems Maharshi is saying.

The inward tendency gets stronger and more one-pointed. The vasanas are slayed as they enter the fortress. I put them to the light of inquiry. Are they eternal? Can they give me happiness? Are they who I am? I experience more and deeper abiding formless Grace. The words that do not come from that place that do not awaken to that, become like stale crackers, I move on to a more delicious meal.

Losing M. Mind said...

From Four Requisites for Realization and Self-Inquiry by Society of Abidance in Truth:

Sincerity and earnestness are necessities in pursuit of Supreme Truth. With insincerity, who fools whom? If one is in earnest to find the Truth, he will be always undaunted and will destroy the illusory fetters that appear to keep him bound, so that his deepest yearning is fulfilled.

Being single-minded in the pursuit of Self-Knowledge comes to those aspirants who recognize the utmost importance of realizing the Self, understanding that in no other way will one abide in enduring peace, genuine freedom, and unending joy.

The conviction in the Truth drives one to realize it. If one's own mind is undivided concerning this, that is, if faith is beyond doubt regarding the fact that the Absolute SElf, indeed, exists and is realizable, the inquiry into the Self rests upon solid ground.

Faith can be in the existence of the Absolute. Faith can be in Knowledge of Truth that reveals that the Absolute and one's own Self are identical. Faith in the nondual teachings that reveal this identity is of immesne help.

Once one has a conviction in them, one can directly experience that Truth for oneself by inquiry into the nature of the Self, and this inwardly verifies the Truth in which one originally had faith.

I think this is particularly relevent:
When confronting an apparent obstruction in one's spiritual practice, be it an external circumstance or an interior mode of mind or concept, one is set with a choice.

The aspirant can either carry forward with fortitude, by applying himself more intensely then previoulsy to the spiritual practice and perhaps redirecting the efforts in a wiser way than previously through clearer inquiry, or he can abandon the practice.

In the latter case, there may be a temporary, emotional relaxation as the seeker begins to settle and stagnate in the familiar quagmire of wordly ignorance.

If this state of affairs is further exacerbated by the tendency to misapply nondualistic terminology tro it, the seeker will actually take pride in falling into ignorance and will begin to concoct all sorts of absurd interpretations of the essential teachings and invent all sorts of explanataions to account for the mentalities, emotions, interactions, and such that are not found in teh true freedom of Realization. It is a state of indolence mistaken for peace.

Provided the seeker does not exacerbate the situation by claims to a superior state in such a way, he will, sooner or later, tire of the recurring ignorance and will again commense spiritual effort, with greater fortitude than before, for no one can be fully satisfied except in the natural state of complete Self-Realization.

Clemens Vargas Ramos said...

.

UG. Krishnamurti

In this statement UG said:

Q-1: But we get caught up with that idea (i.e., of enlightenment).
UG: The experience is you.

This is the same as the nondual teaching: "There is no separation of seer, seen und seeing". UG only wanted to point out that "enlightenment" is not a thing we can get hold on by words (because then we get caught up in words). What we call "experience" is normally nothing else then a mental image generated and interpreted by thoughts and concepts, it is no pure experience but an "experience" of the mind. UG surely wanted to direct the people to a non-formal, non-logical and nondual way of understanding, to an understanding without words.

This is in my eyes the sense of his statement.

In Katha Upanishad I found impressive the "knots of the heart" and "immortal":

The heart is the mind producing his faszinating but illusive world. The knots are the desires and fears (or to say it with UG: the fear not to be "enlightened", the desire of the person to become something ["enlightened"]).

"Immortal" points to the truth that "mortal" is an attribute of the mind, a concept of what the person or the thinker of all this apparently is. In reality there is no "mortality" - there is only the mind interpreting things and living beings (what is a "living being"?) as "mortal". Who really was "Michael Jackson"?

.

Ravi said...

Bookworm/Scott/Friends,
Scott's(Losing M. Mind)posts are a joy to read-they do reveal a fine grasp of the practice self enquiry.

Bookworm,I appreciate your mellowed,objective way of asking some fundamental questions-variations of Neti,Neti.

Bookworm asked about the 'spontaneity' of a Realised soul-To be spontaneous is to be without 'Sankalpa'-How ,One day,Sri Ramana 'decided'(!!!)to 'go without Food'- How he ended up eating more than the usual quantity of food on that day!-The 'thought' was certainly there,yet it was not a 'Sankalpa'-All the usual logic fails to comprehend this state of 'spontaneity'.

Here are a couple of beautiful verses from Ashara Mana Maalai that capture this paradox:

11.
Aim/bulak/kal/var
Ahat/tinil/puhum/bô
Dahat/tilnî/ilai/yô
Arunâ/chalâ.

Even when the thieves of the five senses break in upon me, art Thou not still in my heart, Oh Arunachala?

12.
Oru/vanâ/mun/nai
Olit/tevar/varu/vâr
Un/sû/dê/idu
Arunâ/chalâ.

One art Thou without a second; who then could dare elude Thee and come in? This is only Thy jugglery, Oh Arunachala!

The mind is not apart from the Self-it is the Shakti or Power of the self.As such,it cannot be 'destroyed'(as we usually understand this term).
From the perspective of the sadhaka-it is helpful to take due cognizance of this fact and proceed.This is the essence of that excellent admonition of Sri Sarada Devi that I have referred to in my earlier mail.
This 'Power of the Self' is what is endearingly called as 'Divine Mother' and it is this power that has planted the 'ego'(I and Mine)sense and it is this Power alone that can dissolve it and release one from 'Bondage'.

Salutations.

Ravi said...

Ramos/Bookworm/friends,
Ramos has clarified succinctly in his latest post regarding the queries posted by Bookworm.

Bookworm,the 'knots of the Heart' and 'Mortality' are existential facts-They cannot be wished away as chimeras of the 'mind' or 'thought'.The Upanishadic seers were no 'theoreticians'.They recognized this basic existential paradigm and pointed the way to Freedom or Immortality.
No degree of 'abstraction'through Rigourous Logic can annul the hold of the 'Knots' and 'Mortality'.Only through earnest Sadhana,this paradigm can be crossed.

Losing M. Mind said...

Bookworm, on yearning for REalization
From Collected Works:

Maharshi's translation of Crest Jewel of Discrimination by Adi Shankara:

Liberation in the form of abidance as the Self, born of that wisdom, is not to be attained except as a result of righteous actions performed throughout countless crores of births.

However, even though all the above qualifications may not be obtained, Liberation is assured through the Grace of the Lord if only three conditions are obtained: that is a human birth, ***intense desire for liberation***, and association with Sages.

It goes on to say...The qualifications are enumerated as follows
1. Discrimination between the Real and Unreal.
2. Disinclination to enjoy the fruits of one's actions either in this or any future life.
3.The six virtues of tranquility, self-control, withdrawal, forbearance, faith, and concentration of the Self.
4. ***Intense yearning for Liberation***

Nome (who supposedly Realized the Self) wrote a pamphlet on these entitled the Four Requisites for Realization and Self-Inquiry.

What he had to say (part of) on the fourth Intense yearning for Liberation;

The desire for Liberation functions as the fuel for one's spiritual practice. If all sorts of attributes are present, even the other requisites mentioned, but there is a lack of desire for Liberation, actual advancement, as determined by the degree of freedom from misidentification, will be slow, if at all.

If though, the aspirant would have none of the other requisites or beneficial attributes, but was endowed with an intense desire for Liberation, the other needed requisites and such would manifest in due course of the practice of Self-inquiry. When the requisites are practiced fueld by the desire for Liberation, the highest good results.

I think this bears on our discussion:
Erroneous interpretations of nonduality may lead one to assert that the desire for Liberation will foster or produce a continuance of duality, for it may posit the notion of something for which to search and the seeking for it. This, though, represents an error in reasoning due to lack of direct experience, for there is no "rule" that Liberation must be conceived or treated as if an objective goal apart from oneself.

Since Knowledge of the Self is alone Liberation, ignorance is entirely self-imagined, the Self is forever non-objective, and Knowledge is One with Being, therefore, the desire for Liberation is actually a profound recognition of what truly is one's natural tate and the discernment of what is not that natural state.

Understanding this results in fervent seeking within. Within is the Self. The desire for Liberation leads one to inquire and thus know the Self as it is, in which there is no duality whatsoever. For one who is to Realize the Self, this inner, intense desire to realize and its corresponding search via Self-inquiry represent no duality or difficulty, but rather attention is focused upon the nature of the seeker himself.

When the nature of the seeker is known, revealing an utter absence of the individual and only the real Being of the SElf existing, the desire for Liberation has been fulfilled and vanishes on it's own.

The desire for Liberation should be as intense as possible. If there is clear discrimination, all the force of desire for happiness that drives teh person's life while caught up in illusion becomes the intense desire for Liberation, as that Realization alone is full satisfaction, the fulfillment and the end of the desire.

The more intense the desire for Liberation, the more ardently one will pursue the inquiry and the more adament one will be about retaining the freedom found through detachment and disidentification.

Bookworm said...

M. We all have or must have had
intense desire for unreal 'self realisation'
I was just saying that the 'one' who desires is also unreal but like a street sign, that 'one' points the way to what is real.. the Heart.

Losing M. Mind said...

I've been watching full Papaji satsangs on google video. They are so rich with spiritual instruction. I could go on and on about it. And yes, there is definitely intense Grace, because of that perfect poise in the perfect state of the Self, bliss. But watching papaji for a long time and not just the clips other people think is cool. he hits on so many specific doubts.

sD said...

I was blessed to visit Skandashram & Virupaksha cave last saturday. Sheer Bliss!!

shiba said...

If SELF alone is, there is really no world and jiva and god even as maya.

Is it right understandeing of Sri Ramana ajata teaching?

Losing M. Mind said...

David godman's discretion can decide whether this gets posted or not. (I trust his discretion which is better then mine, but if nothing else, maybe he'll find it enjoyable--lol). I quote Nome, because Nome was really how I got exposed to Ramana Maharshi. Although he has never overtly called himself Self-Realized, I had an incredibly deep experience even going in jaded about the environment at society of abidance in truth (SAT) the first time. "oh please, can I go now?" I don't live in Santa Cruz, but after a year and a half struggling with inquiry, I had really deep experiences everytime I watched a video of Nome. I did not have this experience with new age neo-advaitins. This prompted me even though I somewhat believed the claims at guru ratings (I'm a curious person) to write him. There was a strong grace, and wisdom in his responses. And he didn't give pat neo-advaita answers, but tailored responses. and he sometimes gave strong, almost harsh advise for instance with guilt he said that the self-definitions responsible for delusive actions should be destroyed. Anyway I've gone to Society of abidance in truth this summer, and had incredible grace experiences in his presence. And I have to say, contrary to all those claims on guru ratings (true or not, I have no idea), he was incredibly unassuming, almost shy, and kind everytime I encountered him outside of satsang. And there wasn't any kind of pretention. (jeans, and casual shirts, unassuming, very nice) I talked to old devotees, who all put me in a deep state of non-doership just by being around them, and there were some interesting stories. The believable to my satisfaction idea of how everything transpired was that Nome was not in a state where he would tell people to go away, and so some of hte people who associated with him were not necessarily the nicest people. But he didn't show preference to people. That makes sense in light of his treatment to me. one old devotee who took me shopping and was incredibly kind, and had known nome since both were in their teens, said nome has always been like this. he compared the situation with Nome and the disreputable characters who hung around with him to be like sages in india who were murdered by greedy devotees. For myself, I have to say no one has responded so much to my mad rambling e-mails, and so selflessly with nothing in it for them.(and he has parkinsons disease--his left hand shakes and he responds anyway) Evidently after smoe of the more disreputable element left angrily and on bad terms with everyone else (years ago), the claims on guru ratins are not true about donations at this point. No one even sees whether you give donations and often I didn't or just a few bucks. Nome has such a live and let live quality to him, that it really seems to me anyway that everything done around there is done by grace. I've had spectacular visions in nome's presence, and people on guru ratings were claiming he has a spy network, and it's possible that the "bad" people did. (lol). But Nome responded often in kind gesture or word to what I was thinking not what I said. so there was a genuine psychicness that I experienced from him.

Losing M. Mind said...

Another person on guru ratings claimed that he wrote flirtatious letters to lure in womenn and sexually use them. I found his letters and still do, so kind that I even feel as a straight male some infatuation. And I would imagine that in interaction with Self-Realized people's egos can go kind of haywire, and infatuation too. I have no idea what is true or not true as far as what is claimed because I wasn't there, and am not going to presume to know. But I've experienced abusive people, manipulative peole in my life, who have taken advantage of me with Asperger's, I've grown weary enough to recognize the signs. I would say that Nome is the least abusive, least manipulative person I've ever met with no reservations. One devotee, who as far as I know is hte only one who has realized the Self, Cee at presentnonexistence.org and does great artwork about Self-Realization said that Nome was the greatest teacher in the Western World. I have no hesitancy in saying that, taht appears to be true. This isn't to convert anyone, but this is my experience. And you asked about worthy Self-Realized saints/sages. I believe Nome is one.

tusna said...

I am amazed by the coincidence.I had been wanting more information on Maurice Frydman, since I heard him mentioned in many accounts connected with Bhagwan.Maggie,his daughter was my room mate in 1972 at CMC Vellore.I had met Maurice & Hilla((who knew my father ) at the time, along with Dorab.I knew nothing of Bhagwan or of Mr Cohen who was Maggie local guardian.I had an uplifting experience in 1971 when I read " I am God. There is no other " in Isaiah 45.Only now is the true import of those words fully comprehended;Bhagwans who am i enquiry reveals The Truth.tusna

Ravi said...

Scott,
"For myself, I have to say no one has responded so much to my mad rambling e-mails, and so selflessly with nothing in it for them.(and he has parkinsons disease--his left hand shakes and he responds anyway) "
Wonderful to read your post.To be sensitive and Grateful is a clear sign of Progress.
Wish you the very Best.
Namaskar.

Anonymous said...

This is with reference to what Sankar had mentioned.
Yes the saint is Ramana Giri and he is from Sweden.
He attained jeeva Samadhi at KUTLADAMPATTI - 25kms from Madurai. He was given dikshna by Bhagwan Ramana..
If itnersted you can visit this URL
http://www.sriramanagiriswamigal.com/

carolina said...

I recently visited Ramana ashram and bought a few old numbers of the Mountain Path, today I was reading an article about Swami Ramanagiri and was somehow touched by the simplicity it transmitted as well as by the picture attached to it. It is found in a number of the year 1977, July, in page 167, written by K.C.Sastri. It is not too long, just a page, most information is already mentioned by you but there is something of his childhood in it. Since in your info it is stated that you live in Tiruvannamalai it must be easy for you to check out. Maybe this information is of interest to you.

Anonymous said...

This is with reference to what Sankar had mentioned.
Yes the saint is Ramana Giri and he is from Sweden.
He attained jeeva Samadhi at KUTLADAMPATTI - 25kms from Madurai. He was given dikshna by Bhagwan Ramana..
If itnersted you can visit this URL
http://www.sriramanagiriswamigal.com/

sD said...

I was blessed to visit Skandashram & Virupaksha cave last saturday. Sheer Bliss!!

Bookworm said...

Losing M. Mind
UG Khrishetc: You already know it. Don't tell me that you don't. There is no such thing as truth at all.


M. It is just a quote from some
desd guruish type of person.

We are truth, all of us, it is the self we truly are, it is the Heart and is Love

He was probably having a bad day.

Losing M. Mind said...

"Hello Losing M.Mind or M. for short. You say:
'couldn't it be said, maybe that the commentary on that verse was written by Maharshi (lol)"

That was good! Took me a second.

Anonymous said...

Is staying with the "I" another
word for awareness, just being in the here and now?

Clemens Vargas Ramos said...

.

... Losing M. Mind Wrote: Shankara's commentary on verse: ...

Where can I find Shankaras comments on Katha Upanishad, Losing M. Mind? I only have Swami Nikhilanandas summaries of them.

.

Bookworm said...

Hello Clemens..You say:

'"When all the ties of the heart are cut asunder here, then the 'mortal becomes' immortal. Such is the teaching."
Katha Upanishad, II-3, 15'

......
Surely what is 'immortal' is ..Always..'immortal?'
Surely it does it does not
..Become.. 'immortal?'

Anonymous said...

David,
It's been a long time. How are you? How was your trip to England? Please post something, anything. Thank you.

Bookworm said...

Anonymous says:


The simplicity and ordinariness of Zen has been an enduring love-affair,
but Ramana’s teachings . . . . what can I say without spoiling them?

....

'I am going back to Zen'

Losing M. Mind said...

"M... How do yo kmow that Papaji was 'enlightened' from the age of 6?"

Bookworm Maharshi III, because I'm taking his word for it, and in Nothing Ever Happened Part I, he talks about how he Realized the Self after his mother offered him a mango drink which he refused. His family convinced him it was because of Krishna and that he should take up being a Krishna bhakta. Maharshi, told him to look for the seer instead of an external god. You know the story. I take him at his word. Do I know that Papaji was Enlightened from age 6? no, I'm not him, but that is what he said.

Bookworm said...

Losing M. Mind says:
'he was an excellent shot, and that being Enlightened from age 6 onwards after'
...

M... How do yo kmow that Papaji was 'enlightened' from the age of 6?

Bookworm said...

Nandu Narasimhan you ask: Does it matter?

....

Yes, very much so.

Nandu Narasimhan said...

@ Bookworm,

Does it matter?

Clemens Vargas Ramos said...

.
MURALI - ...accept and see without any trace of doubt or reaction, that whatever has happened up to the present moment is only through God's injunction...Yes, that corresponds to the "second way":

GEMS FROM BHAGAVAN:

"There are only two ways to conquer destiny or be independent of it. One is to enquire for whom is this destiny,and discover that only the ego is bound by destiny and not the Self, and that the ego is non-existent.

The other way is to kill the ego by completely surrendering to the Lord, by realizing one’s helplessness and saying all the time, ‘Not I, but Thou Oh Lord’ and giving up all sense of ‘I’ and ‘mine’, and leaving it to the Lord to do what he likes with you. Complete effacement of the ego is necessary to conquer destiny, whether you achieve this effacement through Self enquiry or bhakti marga (path of devotion)."
.

Bookworm said...

Anonymous Wrote:Do Christians ask about Sri Ramana
Maharshi's divinity or greatness?

.........

Ask some Christians...........


who have heard of Ramana ...for your truest answer.

Anonymous said...

Dear David,

(and anyone else who may know),

Did Ramana ever discuss his position on the subject of the divinity of Jesus Christ? If so, what was it?

Thank You,
Regards,
Mar.
maruta_ananda@yahoo.com

Losing M. Mind said...

Artist formerly known as Scott Fraundorf;

I was watching on Youtube, dialogues between U.G. Krishnamurti, and Byron Katie, essentially both Self-Realized, I accept non-skeptically. Krishnamurti, while in use of language, says something different from Ramana, I don't think in meaning, he differs at all, coming from experience. For instance, he seems to be questioning, deconstructing, tearing apart, what is lower case knowledge, lower case truth, things that are thought, respect for gurus, because they claim to be "enlightened". But at the same time, clearly the state he points to, is the same Truth, Knowledge. He just doesn't like to use those words, because of their normal association with something verbal, something thought. But to Ramana, the kind of Knowledge he experienced, Self-Knowledge, is absolute egoic silence, without a trace of thought, sithout a trace of differentiation. When U.G. says, there is no difference between me and that sewer rat, or that tree, he is saying something timeless, reiterated time and time again, which was also said by Ramana. Also even though he tears down, so to speak, the guru-devotee relationship, that Realization can be something given from a guru. His disagreement seems to be with egoic-based thinking, which accepts some lower case doctrinal truth. My understanding of a sadguru, is not referring to formalities, whether it takes on those forms or not, but association with someone who is non-differentiated egoless, not to have it transferred, but because then our identity, individual, differentiated ego-fulness is cut down by the discrimination. I saw that same process around U.G. Krishnamurti, around Byron Katie with her four questions. When Byron Katie talked, in some of the Youtube videos, it sounded remarkably like Talks wtih Ramana Maharshi. No admittance of problems, because they are seen to be utterly unreal, even talking to war victims, and perpetrators, she doesn't accept, or admit of that the problems, traumas or anything other then mental, a rejection of the grace. Preferring some Vasana to grace.

Clemens Vargas Ramos said...

.

To all german readers: The translation of Vasisthas' Yoga by Swami Venkatesananda is finished (although proofreading is still needed). This translation has 790 pages (4.65 MB).

The permission to publish is pending.

This is a protected link at SCRIBD to have a look on this work (for private use only):

Yoga Vasistha at SRIBD.com.